The following tale, as told by the principles and those involved, is not of an Empire Invaision or scheduled event.

The following messages are reproduced here in a single body as the tale not only involves three people with significant ties to Empire (actually, one in each of the three pairs of Rover drivers), but editorially we feel that there is a need to collect this story in one place, so that others can read this tale, and hopefully avoid entering this type of life-threatening situation, or have the sense to avoid entirely different though similarly dangerous situations.

Winter Mis-Adventure

Calvin Coolidge State Forest, Plymouth, Vermont
24 January 1999

Recently a number of D90/Range Rover Owner list readers set off on an adhoc winter off-roading trip in Vermont (Northeastern US) and encounter a number of problems - ranging from mechanical to weather.

The net result was half of the six vehicles required mechanical repairs, two of those were actually disabled and abandoned on the trail in the middle of a stream. The passengers forced to return to the trailhead on foot, crossing through a number of run-off swollen creeks.

Most of the discussion (which follows) has centered about the behaviour of some of the participants. What their behaviour was, is known to four people who were there. Most of the rest of the discussion/supposition/defense are peoples thoughts on the individuals involved or their behaviours/actions/re-actions as reported.

All of these messages and commentary have been gathered into one place, not with the intent to judge, harm or glorify any of the people involved, but rather to relate this event as a cautionary tale, in the hopes that others can learn from it, and avoid having another party return from a trip or event in similar or worse circumstances, and also to avoid the damaging conflicts between individuals which adversely affect the community.


Click for Plymouth, VT Forecast


The setting

An adhoc, informal group, not well organized, of six vehicles set out traversing serveral miles of terrain and a couple streams. In a hill climb, one of the modified vehicles experiences mechanical problems (broken half-shaft) and decides to leave and another second vehicle joins him, both returning to the road and onward destinations without difficulty.

Of the four vehicles remaining two surmount the hill which defeated the first, and decide to press on, with the second pair electing to return to the main road, but apparently not with the first pair that returned. This second pair thinks that going forward may be more risky for their trucks than going back. Of this pair, the lead vehicle becomes high centered on a submerged object in the stream.

While recoving the first, the second vehicle becomes disabled. Both vehicles are now stuck in a snow-melt and rain-swollen stream, with four streams to cross, near-freezing temperatures and a few miles of snowy trails to the nearest road or house. The drivers are now left wet, cold and stranded, whilst the vehicles are in rising waters. If it is not, it could easily become a life-threatening situation.

    Spare the word of those four on-site, who had what communications when is hear-say as presented here.

As you read of this mis-adventure there are a number of things here which should cause you to ask a number of questions:

  • How you conduct yourself while off-roading?
  • What communications equipment you travel with?
  • Who are you traveling with?
  • What are acceptable procedures for members when you are leading a group?
  • What are procedures are lacking or unacceptable when you participate in a group?
  • What is the smallest group you should travel in?
  • What recovery gear should you have for conditions?
  • What happens the technology you have fails?
  • When do you abandon recoving your vehicle ?
  • What do you value?


Regarding Procedures

Some of the responses have theorized that 'good trail procedures' if in place would have prevented this mis-adventure. However, even in reading the trail practices which have been published by various groups previously, it is clear that FOLLOWING PRINTED PROCEDURES WOULD NOT HAVE PREVENTED this situation. It would not have prevented either pair of vehicles from splitting off as they did, nor their getting stuck.

Radios (CB, FRS or Ham) can be adversely affected by terrain features, distance, and weather. Cell phones are only viable in service areas, and then only if you can describe how to get to where you are. GPS doesn't do you any good unless you know which direction you need to travel in, and have maps to help you determine the best route.

What went wrong ? Lots of things.

Is there a smoking gun? I'm not clear on that. In usual list fashion, there are lots of comments about how some reader reacted to the tale, and what they'll do in the future. What you choose to do with this information is up to you.

However, if the distances had been slightly greater, the returning party would have been entirely out of radio contact when they got stuck. If conditions had been more severe, due to the run-off, the cold, or being further from the road, it is likely members of the stranded party would have suffered far more than they did.

Food for thought.


Messages from the rro mailing list digest archive

The discussion started in the D-90 mailing list, and was brought into the Range Rover Owner mailing list by the principles involved. The following entries were submitted to the RRO mailing list from the January 26th to February 1st, 1999.


msgSenderlinesSubject
1 [DJMARLEY@aol.com> 123[D90] Killington Trail Report(LONG)
2 "Chris Velardi" [tchris@57Re: [D90] Killington Trail Report(LONG)
3 Chris Velardi [tchris@fr16UPDATE
4 Bernie & Bill Cameron [b10[not specified]
5 D.A.P. Enterprises, Inc.18Re: Please give to Chris K.
6 "Chris Velardi" [tchris@21Fw: Please give to Chris K.
7 Larry Michelon [kismet2@12Re: [D90] Killington Trail Report(LONG)
8 daitken@sugar-land.anadr47Fw: [D90] Killington Trail Report(LONG)
9 "Chris Velardi" [tchris@10Re: [D90] Killington Trail Report(LONG)
10 "British Bulldog Spares,69Our Interesting Weekend (Re: Killington, etc)
11 "British Bulldog Spares,25Our Interesting Weekend (Re: Killington, etc) -- Addendum
12 EcoDisco18@aol.com 16Chris K and Rovers
13 Our2rovers@aol.com 11Re: Chris K and Rovers
14 "debjohn" [debjohn@gate.46attitudes
15 Peter Goundry [peterg@ai15VT fiasco
16 greynolds@smtp.newsguy.c23Re: Chris K and Rovers
17 greynolds@smtp.newsguy.c24Re: Chris K and Rovers
18Al Tocci (DAP)/Bernie & Bill Cameron70Ordeal in Vermont
19Chris Velardi90Re: Ordeal in Vermont
Majordomo About the digest


[ Message 1 -> end | Table of Contents ]


From: <DJMARLEY@aol.com>
Subject: [D90] Killington Trail Report(LONG)

	[forwarded by Chris Velardi to the RRO list at 10:47 26 Jan 1999
	This full report should have gone out before my addition to it.
	Chris "V"]
The weekend began with Doug Boehme taking a week off for a family vacation with wife and kids to Stowe, Vermont. He decided to start early with the wife and family driving separately and Doug driving up early to get a day in Off-Roading with a few of the list members. So Chris "V", Brian Bonner, Ernie Young, Paul Shumway from British Bulldog Spares, Doug Boehme, myself, and two "others" got together for a day exploring Calvin Coolidge State Forest in Plymouth, VT. The adventure actually took place over a three day period, to be exact, because of a series of conditions which I shall elaborate on later.

On Saturday morning, under rainy skies, Chris "V" and Ernie arrived at my home With Ernie driving his 90 RR and Hybrid trailered behind. We unloaded the Hybrid and decided on a scouting mission that afternoon as we awaited Doug and the others. Before long on our afternoon run I had problems as a stainless brake line wore thru causing a complete loss of brake pressure. We decide to head back to try to find the necessary parts to hopefully repair the line before tomorrow's run with the rest of the group. To no avail parts were not available anywhere and I had to park the rig for Sunday's run. After a night out in Killington, VT (a ski town with 36 bars all within stumbling distance of the ski lifts) we gathered, aside from Brian Bonner the base of Killington Access Road to head out.

After torrential rains all night we continued to receive more rain, eventually receiving 4 inches this weekend. With plenty of snow still around, from a 2 foot storm earlier in the week, we encountered a slide from a ridge line depositing two feet of snow, mud, slush into the roadway on our way to the trail head. At the trail head we pushed ahead with Doug chaining up and enjoying the Scenic Vermont countryside under a layer of snow and ice. After crossing four streams, swollen from heavy rains Chris "V" chose a line up a hill with 12+ inches of snow and broke a half shaft mid way up forcing him to turn back. With Ernie leading the way Chris "V" headed back in three wheel drive.

At this point the "others" separated from the group as they continued up the hill climb leaving Doug and Paul behind. Not having much luck getting up the hill Doug and a friend, Paul Shumway and myself decided to head back. Calling out on the CB we told the "others" ahead of our situation and were told they were "having tea and scones" and otherwise busy. Heading back out the way we came in the two rigs encountered many troubles as the streams were now screaming rivers as the drenching rain continued. With Doug and Paul both getting high centered on a fallen tree in the river bringing both rigs to a halt. After much recovery work the tree was finally clear from under and we pressed on. Pushing thru at this point we were traveling in an adjacent stream bed with 3 plus feet of water flowing under us. Almost out of the stream bed Doug was high centered again as an underbelly skid plate halted all forward movement. With Paul's Disco behind we hooked up recovery lines and began the pull. With the line coming loose during the procedure it ripped out a transmission line on it's way free leaving Paul in bad shape. Being that Paul was three feet under water at this point a field repair was next to impossible.

Midway in the trail we have a Disco with no transmission and a D90 stuck ahead of it. So from there we tried arduously to free Doug's D90 with no avail so as to at least get the four of "us" out of the trail and back to safe ground. It was starting to get dark at this point and still being three and a half miles into the trail we decided to start hiking out. With the four, now river crossings, we knew it would be difficult to proceed across them but we did so by forming a chain by joining our hands at each to prevent anyone getting washed down stream. Finally at 7:30PM we arrive at the Hawk Mountain Inn near the trailhead and plead for help as we are soaked and in need of a warm place and then transport back to my home to regroup. By this point the four of us are totally drained and decide to attempt a recovery in the morning as we were in need of another Rover to first get back to the same spot and then recover the other two vehicles.

At first light we were to head out. But before that we needed vehicles to do so. We contacted Brian Bonner from Burlington, VT to ask him to come and help. I also start calling everywhere so as to attain another stainless brake line to also assist in the recovery, being that I was the only fully locked rig knowing we may need to tow Paul's Disco out the three and a half miles thru an almost impassable trail at this point. Turned out the only place that had a line was Alan Eliot at CitySide Garage in Boston, Massachusetts (a three hour drive each way from Killington) So with no other means of obtaining a line I made the trip there with Paul Shumway and back picking up my line and a few other parts that may be needed to repair his blown transmission cooler lines. All this being completed by 3:00PM we headed back out on the trail with Brian Bonner and myself incurring trails even more washed out than the day before to even get to the two stuck vehicles. At this point Brian started working his 12,000 pound winch hard with his own D90 tied to a tree so as to prevent him being pulled in too. After much work both vehicles were freed and towed to flat ground to start the inspection to see if they were able to be driven out.

Paul was able to repair the dislodged cooler lines with hoses and clamps we brought in and topped off the fluid and was able to drive out. Doug was not as lucky. After spending the night submerged in three feet of 32 degree water his D90 was reluctant to start. We secured Doug's D90 behind mine using a kinetic rope and began the long trip out. As it started to get dark again, now our third day out and knowing that the four stream crossings that lie ahead we moved quickly. With myself first with Doug in tow and then Paul Shumway and lastly Brian Bonner we moved out. With myself fully locked at points to get Doug thru we made our way back to the trail head and then to my home to regroup.

With Doug still immobile, and wife waiting at Stowe to begin the family vacation, he and friend stayed yet another night at my home. As I write this Doug is arranging transport to a repair facility and then will join his family to start their holiday. With Doug being in the "dog house" with his wife (and loosing Off-Roading privileges "FOREVER") the rest of the group headed home. So I must say we probably can add a few more to the list of people who are BANNED from winter Off-Roading as Dennis White now has some company. Even though we had some problems it all worked out and by staying as a team, aside from the "other's" (not to be named, YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE) we worked thru our problems and still had a good time getting the oval a little "muddy"

Derek Marley
Killington, VT (Banned from hosting winter events ever again, well maybe?)


[ <- Message 2 -> end | Table of Contents ]


From: "Chris Velardi" <tchris@freewwweb.com>
Subject: Re: [D90] Killington Trail Report(LONG)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:59:52 -0500

To add to Derek 's trail report, If you plan on doing any serious off roading make sure the group you go with has the same off-road ideals , mottos and credos you do. If you are going to put your rig and your life in others hands make sure they are not going to lead you, send you , or leave you some place where you cant get out of.

I always assumed (never a good thing) that everyone on the trail was responsible for the rig behind them. In such instances everyone either gets through or gets help. What we do is not a contest to see if you can bury another driver , but a camaraderie of rigs who together can accomplish just about anything. It's a team work thing that at the end of the day everyone looks back at what they have accomplished , analyzed how it was done and learns form it ; in turn gaining friends, great experiences and stories to tell.

In the last two trips I was on there where people who excluded them selves from further extreme winter snow and ice driving and others (loved ones) who excluded them; then on a more sour note those who would be excluded from invitation on further events. Those that would sit in their rigs and wait to be recovered not wanting to get cold, wet or muddy and those that would sit in their rigs while others lie in peril figuring that the others will take care of them. This is not a voyeurism sport, if your there lets hope you have the balls to help those around you... remember some day you may be in need, and you better hope others are there for you. On New Years day some one came up to me in the pitch black, sub freezing cold and said I deserved some kind of purple heart award, because I was out of my vehicle more than I was in it, tending to everyone's recovery during the 9 hour 3 mile trail ride...my girlfriend looked at me and thought it was strange that my actions were seen as "above the call" and not the norm. She then proceeded to list off those on the trip she would never off road with again, and if I did she wouldn't attend.

This past weekend when Chris Komar (sp) of DAP answered a call for assistance from two remaining vehicles after I had left the trail with a broken half shaft with the reply "were having tea and scones" and then continued on to have lunch and leave the trail. I was applauded I had never heard of such a blatant lack of camaraderie in my entire life. When my rig went lame Ernie Young not only gave up the rest of his day to assist in getting my rig back to civilization, but lent me his Range Rover and his trailer to get my rig back to CT. while he drove his hybrid with no heat and excessive exhaust fumes 5 hours back to RI which he normally trailers This was so far above and beyond the role of friends it reminds me why I email him and a few others every time an event comes up. I was glad to here no serious injuries happened and hopefully the rigs can be repaired with out excessive cost. If the lead rig after I left had added assistance there would have been little to no damage , no days of work missed , and no vacations ruined...Keep this in mind. It's too bad we have to have experiences like these , to see who should invite and who we should avoid when putting trips together.

Chris "V"


[ <- Message 3 -> end | Table of Contents ]


From: Chris Velardi <tchris@freewwweb.com>
Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 6:56 PM
Subject: UPDATE

    [forwarded by Chris Velardi to the RRO list at 12:34 26 Jan 1999]

Just a note to update a few of you that called with concern, Brain Boner drover back down from Burlington VT and Derek drove to Boston and back for a brake line for his truck to try to get at least two vehicles on the recovery attempt By 3 p.m. they went back in and it is now 6:45 , no word from them yet. The Discos transmission is gone so the recovery will be that much more difficult. I'll Email every one when I hear more news.

Chris "V"


[ <- Message 4 -> end | Table of Contents ]


From: Bernie & Bill Cameron <bhc@worldpath.net>
Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 7:39 AM

    [forwarded by Chris Velardi to the RRO list at 12:34 26 Jan 1999]

Komar,

Didn't these guys even call you? I should have thought that they'd be smart enough to get help locally. Bernie


[ <- Message 5 -> end | Table of Contents ]


From: D.A.P. Enterprises, Inc. <dapinc@vermontel.com>
Subject: Re: Please give to Chris K.

    [forwarded by Chris Velardi to the RRO list at 12:34 26 Jan 1999]

Dear Bernie & Bill,

I guess there's something to be said for having older Land Rover products and "a lot of knowledge", as opposed to having the latest Land Rover products and "little knowledge". It's too bad that our "trailmates" collectively weren't able to recover their rigs. If you remember, we had a nice lunch and we did check to see if anyone needed assistance before we left. Amateurs!

Regards,
Chris K.


[ <- Message 6 -> end | Table of Contents ]


From: "Chris Velardi" <tchris@freewwweb.com>
Subject: Fw: Please give to Chris K.
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:34:38 -0500

After two vehicles sat broken and stranded in a rain swollen river with sub freezing temperatures for over 24 hours , and four rover owners had to wade back through 3.5 miles of streams and snow before getting to the nearest road at 10pm this is the reply that was expected. Keep in mind he is not only supposed to be a Rover enthusiast but a Rover parts retailer also.

And if some one abandons you the first time do you call them back for assistance the second time ? I'd leave a Rover broken for a year before buying another part from D.A.P. enterprises. If Chris K thinks there is room for his arrogance and negligence on trails he'll be doing them alone. Just a word of warning to those who think they can trust their parts supplier.

Imagine!

Chris "V"


[ <- Message 7 -> end | Table of Contents ]


Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:36:47 -0800
From: Larry Michelon <kismet2@erols.com>
Subject: Re: [D90] Killington Trail Report(LONG)

Erie is a great guy. He got me un-high centered a couple of times at GP.

I'm sure Erie even actually enjoyed himself!! Everyone should have such an attitude.

Larry Michelon
'89 RR


[ <- Message 8 -> end | Table of Contents ]


From: daitken@sugar-land.anadrill.slb.com
Subject: Fw: [D90] Killington Trail Report(LONG)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:16:09 -0500

	[forwarded by Chris Velardi to the RRO list at 14:16 26 Jan 1999

	I'm forwarding this to the LRO list Doug I hope you don't mind
	(it will be more effective there)

	Chris "V"]

I am sure (or, at least, I hope!) that the great majority of D-90 owners on this list will line up with me and agree wholeheartedly with everything you have said.

Down here in Texas, the gang I wheel with (whether Rover, Jeep, Toyota, Hummer....) all wheel by the rules/ethics you do. I have never seen anyone hold back when someone is stuck or in peril. Happily, cold weather is not one of the problems we generally have to deal with. But in my opinion, this must strengthen the necessity of people sticking together and ensuring everyone gets out in the minimum time from the trail.

I'm sorry your trip turned out as tough as it did. I think you said some things which needed to be said. I regret that it was necessary for you to say them!

And I hope what you said serves as a wake up call to everyone on the list on their trail responsibilities.

And as for those turds who had their tea 'n' crumpets, instead of helping out: a good dose of indigestion to all of you. And good luck finding people to wheel with in the future!

PS: I don't wish any ill will or breakages on your rigs! They are not to be blamed for their thoughtless drivers. Neither would I with-hold assistence to you if I came across any of you stuck on trail. And the sad thing is that Chris V., Ernie, Derek, Doug 'n' Paul would help you in the future if they found you stuck..... That is the nature of a real off-roader! I hope you reflect on your behavour and change it in the future. Also a written or E-mail apology to them would be in order!

Doug and Kim Aitken
'95 Red Defender 90 5-speed
'95 Aspen Silver Range Rover 4.0
E-mail daitken@sugar-land.anadrill.slb.com


[ <- Message 9 -> end | Table of Contents ]


From: "Chris Velardi" <tchris@freewwweb.com>
Subject: Re: [D90] Killington Trail Report(LONG)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:22:28 -0500

Non of my posts are looking for praise or apologies, I'm just trying to inform others what to be careful of. When Your rig and your life are on the line.

Chris "V"


[ <- Message 10 -> end | Table of Contents ]


Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:25:44 -0500
From: "British Bulldog Spares, Ltd." <bulldog@meganet.net>
Subject: Our Interesting Weekend (Re: Killington, etc)

Hey Everyone,

I won't repeat any of the details that have already been addressed, the gist of this message is twofold:

First, I really want to express my great appreciation to everyone who expressed their concern for our well being this past weekend. Frankly this was one of the worst experiences of my life; one that I hope will not be repeated by me or anyone else. It was scary, dangerous, tiring and possibly life-threatening. Thanks to the big Kahuna upstairs for watching out for us. I came to understand who I can trust and who really cares about my sorry butt. First huge thanks goes to Brian Bonner for driving down from Burlington VT to help us extract the vehicles from their icy (potential) grave. Without his effort, we'd still be there. Thanks to Derek Marley for letting us all use his home as base camp for the weekend and for risking his own person and vehicle; Doug Boehme and Steve Early for hanging on tight as we crossed the very cold rivers and for getting stuck while trying to unstick BB Mobile 2. Chris V for his above and beyond concern and acting as communication liasion. Ernie Young for, well being Ernie Young, a person whom I'm honored to consider one of my best and most trusted friends. Without the help of all these people, there would be either some Vermont rescue dogs out looking for us in the woods, or at least two trucks waiting in three feet of water ready to be picked up in the spring after the snow melt. I'm personally still very shaken, but at least I'm alive (albeit with a frostbitten toe).

Second, I want to express my great concern regarding the attitude and actions of the other people involved with the trip. I won't get into the whole deal, but I called one of the parties this morning to sort of confront him and see where his head was at. Basically the response I got was sarcastic, uncaring, unconcerned and totally devoid of any responsibility-taking. I am pissed off beyond belief at this attitude. I had heard some stories about this particular person, but never had any personal experience with him. I gave him a chance to redeem himself in my mind and he not only blew it, he went beyond that into the realm of being an egotistical sociopath; unconcerned with anyone but himself. I try to live by a credo that if you're nice to people, everything else falls into place. I tried to be nice, but with his attitude, I frankly hope I never see him again. For the record, if he had given an apology of any sort, this entire paragraph would have gone unwritten. To make matters worse (in my mind) this person is a competitior of my company. End of story.

I've learned my lesson. I know who I can trust and who I can't. Maybe if those other parties involved had had to cross belly button deep rivers holding on to each others hands to prevent being pulled downstream or had a frostbitten foot, they'd be more compassionate. Oh well.

Thanks again for the concern and for letting me "spill my guts" as it were.

Take care all,

Paul
British Bulldog Spares, Ltd.
Parts and Accessories for Land Rovers and Range Rovers


Proud Sponsors of the 1998 Border to Border Expedition and The C.J. Foundation for S.I.D.S.
Toll Free 888.874.3888 -- www.britishbulldog.com


[ <- Message 11 -> end | Table of Contents ]


Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:18:06 -0500
From: "British Bulldog Spares, Ltd." <bulldog@meganet.net>
Subject: Our Interesting Weekend (Re: Killington, etc) -- Addendum

Just a quickie.

I forgot to thank Alan Elliott from Cityside Garage in Boston for his assistance in getting us the parts we needed to fix the trucks. He spent a considerable amount of time figuring out the best way for me to fix the transmission cooler line and also hooked Derek up with the brake line he needed. He's a great guy and I'd highly recommend his shop for service on your Rover (or Aston Martin, Lotus, etc etc)

Thanks,

Paul
British Bulldog Spares, Ltd.
Parts and Accessories for Land Rovers and Range Rovers


Proud Sponsors of the 1998 Border to Border Expedition and The C.J. Foundation for S.I.D.S.
Toll Free 888.874.3888 -- www.britishbulldog.com


[ <- Message 12 -> end | Table of Contents ]


From: EcoDisco18@aol.com
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:17:24 EST
Subject: Chris K and Rovers

Chris K is an instructor at the Land Rover Equinox. Who gave this guy a job training others? Leave people to fin for themselves in treacherous conditions just because they couldn't keep up? Not turn around after a call for help came? A man suffered frostbite for Christ's sake. Do we as a community, scratch that, CAN we as a community afford to let people like this be in a position to be training newcomers in the art of off roading? It is people like this that get our lifestyle persecuted and looked down upon by others. Moving above the opinion of others, it is people like Chris K that get others killed. I will not ride on a trail with this man. I would recover him if I were I to find him stuck, because that is just what is done.


[ <- Message 13 -> end | Table of Contents ]


From: Our2rovers@aol.com
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:47:14 EST
Subject: Re: Chris K and Rovers

I have dually noted this stuff and heard the stories, I will not be purchasing from that company but would not have anyway. And I hope it raises awareness about trail etiquette. We should all write up a trail rules flyer for every outing just in case someone gets amnesia and runs off without the pack.

Kevin


[ <- Message 14 -> end | Table of Contents ]


From: "debjohn" <debjohn@gate.net>
Subject: attitudes
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 23:08:35 -0500

sigh. i'm offline for a few days and come back to find this on the rro list:

> I guess there's something to be said for having older Land Rover products
> and "a lot of knowledge", as opposed to having the latest Land Rover
> products and "little knowledge"

so, one gathers "a lot of knowledge" by being abandoned on the trail? in winter? oh, i get it. the "knowledge" gained is that one might as well rover alone so as not to develop a false sense of security or suffer from any delusions about receiving sympathy, let alone assistance, from certain drivers. and what is this older rovers versus newer rovers sentiment? did i accidentally resubscribe to lro again?

i really didn't know quite what to make of series of posts about the killington outing, until i read chris k's forwarded missive. i had hoped that there had been some simple misunderstanding, but the tone of his reply eliminates any such charitable explanation.

> Amateurs!

is that supposed to be an insult? as in, some folks go rovering for fun, not profit? perhaps we need to add a generous wad of cash to our list of recovery gear.

actually, i'd rather be stuck on the trail alone, or with real friends, than share tea and scones with self-styled rover professionals. mercenaries!

finally, my apologies to anyone on the list who would rather ignore this ugly business and stick to discussing the relative merits of synthetic, semi-synthetic, and traditional lubricants (or whatever). i joined rro to learn more about rovers, not to encourage flame wars, but, seeing as how we all have to buy spare parts from somewhere, i felt compelled to comment. i will gladly take this off list if anyone wishes, but i won't pretend that i didn't read the killington thread, and i will never do business with dap.

bitterly disappointed,

debjohn


[ <- Message 15 -> end | Table of Contents ]


From: Peter Goundry <peterg@aircast.com>
Subject: VT fiasco
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 15:35:54 -0500

On the subject of amateurs, I will comment that of any off-roader I have met, Chris Velardi & Childress Barnett typifies the best one can find in companions off the road. Last autumn, at the WCRC event in VT, they baby sat a first time disco owner from the trailhead to the finish. They ensured the drivers of that vehicle had an enjoyable day without to much concern about their own needs,

Peter Goundry
67 GS109IIA, 73 Lightweight, 97D90#127


[ <- Message 16 -> end | Table of Contents ]


From: greynolds@smtp.newsguy.com (Geoffrey Reynolds)
Subject: Re: Chris K and Rovers
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 13:34:07 GMT

On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 06:57:36 -0800 (PST) by EcoDisco18@aol.com:
>Chris K is an instructor at the Land Rover Equinox. Who gave this guy a job
>training others? ...

Perhaps someone should inform the Equinox about what happened. If he remains employed, perhaps we as a group shouldn't patronize them... My company uses the Equinox for group building exercises at times. I'm sure if I passed this story along to upper management we would no longer use them (point being that we as a group can perhaps make a difference).

I hope everyone who had to hike out of the trail is OK now.

This also sounds like a story that should be somehow related in club newsletters as an example of how not to conduct yourself on the trail.

Geoffrey Reynolds


[ <- Message 17 -> end | Table of Contents ]


From: greynolds@smtp.newsguy.com (Geoffrey Reynolds)
Subject: Re: Chris K and Rovers
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 13:36:13 GMT

On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 06:57:36 -0800 (PST), Our2rovers@aol.com wrote:

>I have dually noted this stuff and heard the stories, I will not be purchasing
>from that company but would not have anyway. And I hope it raises awareness
>about trail etiquette. We should all write up a trail rules flyer for every
>outing just in case someone gets amnesia and runs off without the pack. 

Unfortunately, the people who need the rules flyers never read them (or read them and proceed to run off without the pack anyway).

Geoffrey Reynolds
http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Canyon/4628/
1995 Land Rover Discovery


[ <- Message 18 -> end | Table of Contents ]

From: "Bernie & Bill Cameron" 
Cc: , "DAP INC" 
Subject: "Ordeal in Vermont"
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:09:27 -0500
Message-ID: <01be4ec6$683d6de0$40be98ce@default>

	[This message was received by me, from Bernie and Bill, is signed
	 by Al Tocci (a long time principle at DAP), it is unclear who wrote
	what in the following message.]
 

I was not going to reply to the authors of the "Ordeal in Vermont" posting, but it seems as though D.A.P. has been dragged into this saga by an employee of another company who competes against us in business.

Chris K. is too much of a gentleman to reply to all of his would be accusers. So I guess someone needs to say something on his behalf. The facts are quite simply these…

Chris was not invited to this "event", nor did he help plan or organize it in any way. He only stopped by to see what was going on and tag along for a little fun. The road that the group organizers chose was only an access road to enter the chosen area, and it was necessary to cross a small stream, which everyone accomplished easily.  Chris Velardi started up the hill and broke an axle.  He had to return to the bottom of the hill.  He and Ernie decided it was best for them to go back out of the woods.  While they were discussing that, Chris K. and the "other" vehicle climbed up the hill that the "organized" group was having trouble with. At that point the Discovery and the red truck tried to make the hill and had problems.  Chris and the "other" vehicle waited for over a half an hour to make sure that help wasn’t needed, all the while monitoring and staying in contact with the group below. Yes, the statement "we’re having tea and scones" was made , (apparently tongue-in-cheek humor is not well understood) however, this was not in response to any distress call. Prior to departing the area, Chris K. contacted Doug B., a member of the group , and asked if they were OK, the response was "no sweat, we’re all set". The group below had already split up themselves when Chris V. and Ernie left with two trucks (one of which was broken),  and as Chris K. departed, the folks below said that they were going back anyway. When Chris K. left they were in no trouble , in fact, they were not even in the river.  The last CB contact Chris K. and the "others" had with them said they were turned around and headed out.  It only makes sense to think that if the leader's vehicle made it out through the stream with a broken axle that the other three that followed should have made it out as well.  It isn't fair to blame Chris Komar for the blunders of the drivers who attended that day.

Chris Komar is a professional driving instructor with many years of experience, his Land Rover is loaded with enough equipment to support a family of four in the woods for at least a month. Chris will usually go out of his way to help people, and many Rover owners who know him have witnessed his willingness to help anyone at various rallies and events. I personally have known him since he was 18 years old, and I know for a fact that he would put his vehicle and himself at risk before he would run out on anyone in trouble. If anyone in the group had asked for any help at all Chris would have responded without a second thought.

The drivers of the "other" vehicle feel that it's about time something is said as well.  For all of you who may be questioning Chris Komar's ability to handle off-road situations, ask  them.  Bill and Bernie Cameron have been off-roading with Chris Komar for 15 years and would put their lives in his hands any day.  If Chris Velardi had bothered to call them, he would have found out that he didn't have all the facts before he went ahead and blew this whole thing out of proportion on the internet.

Chris has been blamed for something that he had nothing to do with, by people who by their own actions put themselves at risk. Chris has been slandered and called an "egotistical sociopath" . His only comment was in an email to the "other" Rover owner , and his remark in reference to "amateurs" was pretty mild in comparison to what most people’s response might have been. A poor choice of words? Well maybe, but in all fairness, he was only expressing his astonishment at this whole farce. As I said earlier, Chris is a gentleman.

It’s too bad that this situation had to happen, but people need to take responsibility for their own actions, and not shift the blame to someone else.  If the organizer/leader of the event had thought this event through more thoroughly, he may have considered more closely the weather conditions and the necessity to go into the woods prepared.  He would have made sure that all of the trucks were equipped with the right equipment for the that days journey.  He would have told the ones who were not properly equipped that it was unwise to attempt the route he had chosen.

At the very least Chris Komar is owed an apology, but I doubt any of those involved are man enough to give it.

Any more discussion on this stupidity would only end up being a "skunk-pissing" contest. I feel that it should end here, it’s already gotten way out of hand and is becoming childish.

Sincerely,

Al Tocci

Bill and Bernie Cameron

 


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From: "Chris Velardi" 
Message-ID: <017101be4f37$918a2d20$e1620e0c@tchris>
Subject: "the True Story" reply
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 00:39:26 -0500
It amazes me how some one that merely knew two of the people on the Killington trip but was nowhere near the trail the day we did it (if he was ever there) has the audacity to publish "The True Story: Weekend Ordeal in Vermont"

Then has the nerve to write the whole thing off as a competitive company trying to make them look bad. When Al Tocci of DAP referred to Chris Komar as a "gentleman" and a "professional" he must of been speaking of a different Chris Komar (unless of course he has an evil twin) No Chris Komar was not personally invited to the "event" but the 3 of the lists did get open invitations to join us and welcoming Doug Boehme to Vermont for the short ski weekend he and his family had planed. He did not "only stop by to see what was going on and tag along for a little fun" I got an email reply from the open invitation I sent out from Bernie and Bill Cameron stating that he was coming up with them for the run two weeks in advance. No Komar did not plan or organize the event, but from the original meeting spot he tried to adjust modify and change where the run was to be. Why? I don't know. Maybe it's a control thing.

By now I'm sick of the story too but it's so contested by those who weren't there that some points should be corrected.

Komar tired of waiting for all 6 rigs to be video taped through each and every water crossing, suggested we make a quick run up a steep hill climb that was not one of the pre planed trails do to the conditions and it severity) so we could break for lunch. I thought it strange to take the hardest obstacle of the day and make quick of it, but I'm easy going and will try anything once, so I broke the trail up the hill until one of my 1/2 shafts gave way. At this point I returned back down to the bottom and with the aid of Ernie Young headed back to the base, at this point the discussion was to have the other vehicles all return or to have them continue on and follow Komar who now was half way up the hill. The last words I heard from Komar was "Komars on top" over the CB the other reluctant to end Doug's trip so early tried to press on. The problem came when the second vehicle ripped up the trail so badly that the next two vehicles (one locked the other locked with chains) could not negotiate it with out putting their safety in jeopardy. At this point the remaining two rigs radio up that they were unable to make the climb and going to have to head back. To which they were replied "We're having tea and scones" or in so many words "sucks to be you huh" or they couldn't be bothered. Now "gentleman" ?, Professional,? or Asshole ? I ask you?

Then Al thinks it makes sense to think if a highly modified Rover Hybrid and a Heavily modified D90 with a winch, lockers, lift and 35" meats and 4.10 gears and modified suspension and a broken 1/2 shaft could make it back through the way they had come, couldn't a locked Disco and a locked D90? the only problem with this reasoning, is no one knew if Ernie and I had made it out and wouldn't know unless they all returned they way we came in or meet back up at the entry point as was determined by radio upon the last two groups splitting up. Now when the rivers start to swell with flash floods and snow melts the dusk and freezing current hides boulders and rigs get high center and fallen trees rip out trany lines. I don't consider these "blunders of drivers" possible Murphy's Law. Over 3 hours later when the last two rigs were finally abandoned and the occupants waded across now freezing raging rivers joining their hands so no one would be washed down stream. for 3-1/2 miles Only to find that no one was there. Again I ask "gentleman"? "Professional"? or self centered bastard?

Over 24 hours later I send out an email to those who voiced concern for the drivers and rigs still unaccounted for. And as the message gets forwarded to Chris Komar he replies

    "I guess there's something to be said for having older land Rover products and "A Lot Of Knowledge" as opposed to having the latest Land Rover products and "Little Knowledge". It's too bad our "trailmates" collectively weren't able to recover their rigs. If you remember, we had a nice lunch anded we did check to see if any one needed assistance before we left. AMATEURS!"
Quote un quote Chris Komar again I ask you "gentleman "?, "professional" or egotistical psychopath ? This is not a poor choice of words on Chris Komars behalf it is his personality. And if Al Tocci doesn't think that employees give a company it's personality I'm afraid he's sadly mistaken there also.

No one ever questioned Chris Komars ability to handle off road driving, what was questioned was his ethics his morals and his attitude

Nuff said

Chris "V" (PS thanks to those who did show concern and turned it into a lesson )


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From: "Tony Porter" 
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:36:45 +1100
Subject: RE: "the True Story" reply

Hello Folks,

> Nuff said

My 2 cents worth.... those of us like myself with not much experience have been reminded that some trips can be hazardous even to the well prepared... a valuable lesson and thanks for the details.

There is a bit of a risk here however that we could end up with escalating conflict that would not be useful. I love this list and would hate to see it descend to a flame war... I was hoping therefore that we could leave this unfortunate occurrence behind us and move on....

Signed,
Tony Porter, interfering idiot...


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